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black_swan
Member
| Joined: | Sat Jan 23rd, 2010 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 5 |
| Model: | | | Hull #: | | | DSC ID: | |
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Posted: Sat Jan 23rd, 2010 03:47 pm |
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Anyone upgraded the jib sheet winches? What the largest you think you can get away with on the combing? I am getting too old for the ones the boat came with. Electric winches have been suggested, but I am not that old.
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dslemke
Member
| Joined: | Fri Jan 14th, 2005 |
| Location: | Reedville, Virginia USA |
| Posts: | 92 |
| Model: | 380 ... | | Hull #: | 145 ... | | DSC ID: | |
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Posted: Mon Jan 25th, 2010 04:39 pm |
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Having installed electric winches on our 380, I would encourage you to give that idea of electric winches more consideration. As my wife and I got older, grinding winches became difficult and being able to press a button has really made Sailing more viable for us well into the future.
And if you are ever going to upgrade your winches, why not do it now and enjoy them the rest of your life. The setup is so robust it is very unlikely that you would ever have any trouble with them if they are installed correctly.
I installed (converted) the two 48 CSTs primaries in 2005 myself and liked them so much I installed a 44 CEST as a mainsail furling winch in 2007. My opinion is that electrics are the only way to go and they can be worked like a manual at any time, so loss of electric would have no effect. Sometimes, when the wind would die, we would roll up main sail and forget about sailing. Then the wind would freshen and we would have to think about whether to bring out the main sail, now we can just push a button.
I posted my projects on the IP Photos site with pictures and word documents.
http://www.islandpacketphotos.com/view_ad.asp?Ad_ID=665
http://www.islandpacketphotos.com/view_ad.asp?Ad_ID=1079
Sail magazine in their February issue has a nice article on Electric Winches. I contributed the DIY perspective for which I was paid so I am not suggesting anyone should buy the magazine but it does talk about the benefits of electric winches.
Since I did both projects myself, if you have any specific questions please feel free to write.
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Douglas A Lemke
Stevadora 380-145
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black_swan
Member
| Joined: | Sat Jan 23rd, 2010 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 5 |
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Posted: Mon Jan 25th, 2010 05:05 pm |
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Thanks. I called Lewmar and I can get the conversion kit so it looks as if I can convert the 40's that are on the boat instead of getting larger manual winches. It looks as if this is the way to go
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dslemke
Member
| Joined: | Fri Jan 14th, 2005 |
| Location: | Reedville, Virginia USA |
| Posts: | 92 |
| Model: | 380 ... | | Hull #: | 145 ... | | DSC ID: | |
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Posted: Mon Jan 25th, 2010 05:54 pm |
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Before you start the conversion process, there are a couple of things that you should know. Only models maufactured after August of 2000 can be easily converted. There is a sticker Lewmar puts on the winches to show that they can be converted easily but by now that sticker is probably gone.
The best way to tell is to remove the winch and look at it's bottom. The British call the frame of the winch the Center Stem. There is a round knockout on easily convertible winches just below the main drive gear which can be seen easily in the picture.
In addition there is also extra holes predrilled in the base of the center stem which accept pins from the new electric winch base frame. If you have had the opprotunity to look at the photos in the IP Photos website, this might be clearer.
There are other things to consider here as well, but this should be your first move. The 40's are very different than either that 44/46 or 48 CST conversion. The shank length of the main shaft of the 40 is much shorter so the thickness of where you are mounting the winch also comes into play here. That is why I removed the 30 CST and went with the 44 CEST for the main sail furling winch as the shank of the main shaft was just long enough to clear to the underside.
If you are not certain on the center stem, when you get a chance, remove the winch and take a picture of the bottom and that can tell you or I can help.
Attachment: Winch Base for Conversion.jpg (Downloaded 74 times) Last edited on Mon Jan 25th, 2010 05:59 pm by dslemke
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Douglas A Lemke
Stevadora 380-145
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black_swan
Member
| Joined: | Sat Jan 23rd, 2010 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 5 |
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Posted: Mon Jan 25th, 2010 06:11 pm |
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You have been unbelievable helpful. Black Swan is on the hard now in Kittery Yacht Yard in Kittery, Maine. I was there a few days ago but the snow is so deep I would need a shovel to get on board. No, thanks. It is raining today, so perhaps I will be in luck later this week. On the other hand, I think I might send my son down to dig her out and post a photo later this week.
John
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dslemke
Member
| Joined: | Fri Jan 14th, 2005 |
| Location: | Reedville, Virginia USA |
| Posts: | 92 |
| Model: | 380 ... | | Hull #: | 145 ... | | DSC ID: | |
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Posted: Mon Jan 25th, 2010 07:10 pm |
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Not a problem, as I found the projects not just to be fun but a real benefit to the enjoyment of our sailing experience. There are a lot more things to think about here but deciding on the winch itself is your first step.
I had all kinds of things to consider when I started the project including someone telling me that you couldn't install them on a 380. The manual itself is written in UK English and even having lived in the UK for three years I still had some trouble "translating".
That said, the wiring instuctions with the kit were not correct either and Lewmar had to send me new wiring instructions. There is a whole lot to consider but the project is doable, fun and very rewarding when it's done. I will be glad to give you the benefit of my experience along the way so please keep me in mind as you continue.
Attachment: Finished Jobs.jpg (Downloaded 73 times)
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Douglas A Lemke
Stevadora 380-145
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black_swan
Member
| Joined: | Sat Jan 23rd, 2010 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 5 |
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Posted: Tue Jan 26th, 2010 05:31 pm |
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Here is a picture of the winch mounted on the base. They are 40's, which I think are too small for the boat. However, if I choose to upgrade to electric they might be OK. It woudl be very expensive to upgrade the size as well as go electric. Thus, the decision is now, electric 40's or larger winches.
John Allen
Black Swan IP350
Attachment: IMG_0070.jpg (Downloaded 58 times)
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dslemke
Member
| Joined: | Fri Jan 14th, 2005 |
| Location: | Reedville, Virginia USA |
| Posts: | 92 |
| Model: | 380 ... | | Hull #: | 145 ... | | DSC ID: | |
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Posted: Tue Jan 26th, 2010 06:38 pm |
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John
A couple of quick things. It appears that the round knock out is already mnissing from the center stem and I see extra holes so it would seem that winch could be upgraded. What year is your 350? Did you check the other side winch as well?
The other thing you need to find out is what the thickness is of the coming all the way through to the locker underneath. The drive motor shaft length on the 40CST leaves only 1 5/16 inches clearance length between the bottom of the new winch base and the top of the motor flange. So the thickness needs to be less than that. There is very limited space underneath the coming in that locker and everything has to fit right.
By comparison the 44/46/48 CST clearance is 2 17/32 inches so you have much more flexibility there. I would download the electric winch manual from Lewmar and look at the clearances required.
And I would also be sure that the other primary winch has the knock out hole as well.
One other thing, the motor attatchment flange setup has two sets of bolts: a 4 bolt pattern coming off the drive shaft housing which mates to a 5 bolt pattern on the motor flange itself. I know that sounds confusing but that is so you can position the motor so it fits in the allotted space underneath
The reason I mention that is you can't be sure that the existing holes in the coming for the winch will be the same holes you use if you electrify. I built a jig and aligned it for both sides and did a mock up in my shop. In one case the holes were fine, in the other, all new holes had to be drilled
Attachment: Alignment.jpg (Downloaded 56 times)
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Douglas A Lemke
Stevadora 380-145
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black_swan
Member
| Joined: | Sat Jan 23rd, 2010 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 5 |
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Posted: Tue Jan 26th, 2010 08:34 pm |
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I make a living as an engineer. You know how stupid I would have felt if I had bought the kit, then discovered the second winch not like the first? That is good advice to check the other as well. I will send my son back down to the boat! I am sure he will be grateful for your advice.
John
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dslemke
Member
| Joined: | Fri Jan 14th, 2005 |
| Location: | Reedville, Virginia USA |
| Posts: | 92 |
| Model: | 380 ... | | Hull #: | 145 ... | | DSC ID: | |
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Posted: Tue Jan 26th, 2010 10:33 pm |
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John
With this project there are so many things to think of that it doesn't hurt to cover all bases. As I think 2003 was last year they manufactured the 350 and who knows how long winches sit at the IP factory before they are installed, I was concerned myself that our 2003 380 winches would be too old. Fortunately, I made out there; they were fine.
In your case even if the second winch did not have the knock out and extra holes you could have done either of two things.
1. Use the first winch frame (center stem) and make a template and then drill both the large round hole and 3 pilot holes. Or.
2. They do sell the center stem for those winches built between 1992 and 2000. However, if you do that, you almost better buying a brand new one ready made winch.
As I recall, the center stem is make of brass so a bi-metal hole saw would do the trick. The shaft housing diameter on the 40CEST is 1.5 inches and the holes themselves are two inches so exactness is not too pressing.
On thing where enxactness is very important is the thickness of the coming where the winch will be installed. Looking at the picture I would say the thickness of the coming is about an inch, but I am not sure. If your son does go to the boat, I would suggest you have him remove a bolt if it is not too cold and measure the distance from the height of the coming to the bottom of the backing plate plate.
If that distance is anywhere near 1.25 inches, you might consider using fender washers instead of a backing plate. Unfortunately the the adaptor that contacts the base plate/shaft housing (4 bolts) to the motor (5 bolts) has to be attached to the bottom of the shank of the base plate/shaft housing from underneath.
What I did was to place the 5 bolts that go to the motor in their holes in the adaptor plate and left then dangling while I attached the adaptor up onto the base plate with the 4 bolts. All fasteners are metric.
Actually that was not difficult, the difficult part is to get the motor up on the shaft inside that little locker. There is a woodruff key arrangement and the shaft has to line up perfectly or it won't go up on the shaft . There is a trick to that I made up and if you take on the project, I can share that a a later date.
Attachment: Coming and Below.jpg (Downloaded 48 times)
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Douglas A Lemke
Stevadora 380-145
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